Chapter and Episode article names[]
Ok, just so you don't run into this problem in the future (as well as for overall better organization), naming chapter and episode articles by serialization is something that should be considered. Why? Well, considering the wikia is seemingly using fan-translations, a lot of titles for the chapters and episodes will be the same. Not only that, but most the titles for Dragon Ball Kai are very similar, to the their Dragon Ball Z counterparts. There are even some cases where the Z & Kai titles are exactly the same. Given there are 2 manga serials and 5 anime serials, it would be much better just to name articles by serial. It would be very annoying to have a manga chapter, Z episode and Kai episode all with similar or the same name whenever you try and search for it. I also think it would be easier for people to search by serialization number (as it would be easier to remember), and we can use re-directs for anyone who prefers to search by chapter/episode name (we will have disambiguation page for any chapters and episodes that share the exact same name). What are your thoughts?
By the way if you need someone who can do basic translations (not perfect, but I'm usually pretty accurate), let me know (I currently handle the majority of translations of episode titles One Piece wikia and chapter/episode titles on the Fairy Tail wikia, and the Kai/Super titles on the other Dragon Ball wiki)
--DuelMaster93 (talk) 00:58, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- Usually, when that happens, a simple title addition can be made. For instance a chapter titled "The Legendary Super Saiyan" would be "Legendary Super Saiyan (chapter)", an episode would then be "Legendary Super Saiyan (episode)" or "Legendary Super Saiyan (Kai)". We already do this with several of our articles. Though your suggestion is very interesting, so I'll let others chime in on this. Secondly, as far as translations go: we use Daizenshuu (they do some translations on their own, surprisingly), a friend of ours (User:Seelentau) who is fluent in Japanese, and my own rudimentary knowledge of the language to read it. I can handle basic translations, such as words and small sentences. But, that being said, we need all the help we can get, so definitely I'd be happy to have you on board as a translator when we need it. ~ Lord Guru
01:06, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- While the method you currently have works, it is the less ideal one when it comes to organisation and ease of use. Usually, with most other series naming by chapter/episode name is fine. But in this case we have 2 manga serials (not counting manga spin-offs other than super atm) and 5 anime serials (one of which is a remake). I think serial number is much easier to remember, and I believe that there are more people who prefer to search by serial number, then by episode name. And, as stated before, we can always re-direct. And in my personal opinion it makes more sense to re-direct chapter/episode title to episode pages, than the other way round.
- Ok good. I also just noticed you just changed the episode titles for Dragon Ball Super episodes 4 & 5 to the translations I provided for the other Dragon Ball wiki (yes, those are my translations), and made some minor changes to match this wiki's names terminology. FYI, the only reason I translated using dub terminology was because that is what that wikia uses. —This unsigned comment was made by DuelMaster93 (talk • contribs) .
- To add on what Ten Tailed Fox is saying, we would also use Disambiguation pages, such as this one, and have the title that the episodes/chapters/volumes share redirect to that page. ★WindStar7125
01:26, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- I really find your suggestion to be interesting, DuelMaster. I'm not against it, but I'd like everyone else's input. What do you guys think about his suggestion? ~ Lord Guru 01:27, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with his idea on redirects. ★WindStar7125
01:33, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- @Windstar I mentioned disambiguation pages in my initial post. Anyway, the problem with the example just gave me was that, I had to spend a good 20 seconds reading every line of that page. Ideally, when I look at that page I would like to see: 'Chapter 90', 'Chapter 155' 'Volume 13' and 'Dragon Ball Episode 64' rather then read 'Son Goku's Counterattack, the ninetieth chapter of the Dragon Ball manga.', 'Son Goku's Counterattack, the one hundred and fifty-fifth chapter of the Dragon Ball manga.' etc. etc... People don't won't to stay on disambiguation pages for too long. I'm sure people would want to get to their desired page in a matter of seconds (as opposed to reading for a bit to determine which page is the one you want).--DuelMaster93 (talk) 01:37, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with his idea on redirects. ★WindStar7125
- I really find your suggestion to be interesting, DuelMaster. I'm not against it, but I'd like everyone else's input. What do you guys think about his suggestion? ~ Lord Guru
- To add on what Ten Tailed Fox is saying, we would also use Disambiguation pages, such as this one, and have the title that the episodes/chapters/volumes share redirect to that page. ★WindStar7125
- While the method you currently have works, it is the less ideal one when it comes to organisation and ease of use. Usually, with most other series naming by chapter/episode name is fine. But in this case we have 2 manga serials (not counting manga spin-offs other than super atm) and 5 anime serials (one of which is a remake). I think serial number is much easier to remember, and I believe that there are more people who prefer to search by serial number, then by episode name. And, as stated before, we can always re-direct. And in my personal opinion it makes more sense to re-direct chapter/episode title to episode pages, than the other way round.
Would this work? And we do have redirects such as this. ★WindStar7125 
01:40, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- I would prefer that the link themselves say Chapter 90 rather then have the serialization number on the side. Also, I think it's better to re-direct the chapter/episode titles to the chapter/episode pages. Simply put, I believe that Chapter 90 should be the main page. It is also easier for when we create new chapter/episode pages. For example, sometimes when I create a page for a new episode, if I make one mistake when typing the title, I have rename the page. When you make let's say 'Dragon Ball Super episode 6' for example, you can just simply do 1 edit to correct it, rather than make 1 additional edit just to re-name the page. Not only that, but the thing about episode titles is that there are so different translations floating around on the net, so someone could try searching with a translation we don't use and not find what they're looking for. By making the serialization numbered page the main page, they are more likely to find what they're looking for faster. Also, a lot of fans watch the dub, so either we do my suggestion or we create pages using dub episode titles (which I do not want to do). The possibility of constant re-naming of pages could get very annoying.--DuelMaster93 (talk) 01:56, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- So far, we've been using kanji, rōmaji, and translations from Kanzenshuu.com. As for your suggestion for renaming this page to Chapter 89 (unless I misinterpreted "I believe that Chapter 90 should be the main page" as you said), I believe for the sake of consistency, we'd use official names. Also, one can just type "Chapter 89" or so in the search bar at the top and be directed to the respective named chapter, and find what they're looking for in arguably the same amount of time due to it being a redirect. Furthermore, we just use the dub names as redirects to the episode page as well, as typing in the dub name would cause the article to appear in the search bar. ★WindStar7125 02:15, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- It's better if we use the offical name of the chapter. And the numbered chapter should be redirected from it. But, if we use this numbered one for the Infobox' character' Début, it may save much space. Right? — The Tragedy of L
- I also use Kanzenshuu as my source for everything Dragon Ball. We are all using official names here, what I am talking about is translations. There are a range of different translations on the net, and it would easier just to make Chapter 50 the main page, because not everyone knows that these re-directs exist. For example, someone clicks on Who Will the 100 Million Zeni Peace Reward Go To…?! on the wikia's main page and then assumes all episode pages are like this and are unaware that re-directs like Dragon Ball Super episode 1 exist, so when they want to look for let's say Dragon Ball Super episode 5, they might attempt to type in the episode title but can't find it due to the wikia using a different translations to the version they watched. Not to mention it would be easier to edit templates by just typing the serial number. I hope I made myself clear this time.--DuelMaster93 (talk) 02:35, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- To my knowledge and from my experience, as for chapters, most users are going to be more likely to remember and be looking for the chapter numbering rather than the chapter name, due to chapters having multiple translated titles as you said, or chapters not having the name of the chapter in English shown at all like this, with only the chapter numbering apparent. Therefore, the chapter numbering as a redirect should be fine in that scenario, as one can type "Chapter ##" and be redirected to the named chapter this wikia uses.
- As for episodes, yes, you are correct, users will recognize the dubbed titles, as episode numbering isn't really revealed while watching the episode. In that scenario, assuming a user won't know that redirects such as Dragon Ball Super episode 1 exist, you are also correct in the assertion that they will be searching for the titles they recognize. The title in that case will more than likely be the dub title, and it can just redirect to the wikia's translation of the title.
- For instance, someone watches GT and sees and recognizes A Devastating Wish on the TV screen. They can search for it, and will be redirected to The Mysterious Dragon Balls Appear!! Goku Becomes a Child?!. The title they recognize from what they watched can be redirected to the different translation this wikia uses; while the user finds the summary they're looking for, they will also discover what the episode is referred to in Japanese, all while maintaining a level of consistency in using translated titles for most articles of this wiki.
- EDIT: This thread is also an interesting read as well, as I can see now where you are coming from, DuelMaster93. But again, the dub title could redirect to the wiki's Kanzenshuu-translated title. ★WindStar7125 03:37, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- Holy crapbaskets did I miss a lot while I was away. First, welcome to the Wiki DuelMaster, nice to have you on board. So...since my two cents is apparently desired, I'm gonna go on record to say I'm not in favour of this myself. As far as it is, I don't see a reason to change the article names from, say, "Son Goku's Counterattack!" to "Dragon Ball Chapter 90" , or, again, "Son Goku's Counterattack!" to "Dragon Ball Chapter 155", and then be on our merry way, with the chapter names being the redirects. I'm far more comfortable as leaving the chapter numbers and episode numbers themselves being redirects. However, this is from a personal standpoint, as you have a point, there's much more media for Dragon Ball than say, Naruto or BLEACH, where everything is simpler and easier to document. Listing chapter and episode titles by their serial number as their article title (say, Bulma and Son Goku to Dragon Ball Chapter 1 would probably make far more sense in the long run, given that all of these series have an "episode 1", having that as the redirect would be painful given how many "episode 1"s exist, it'd just take them right to a disambiguation page just to find the precise episode 1 they want, which could get annoying after awhile. And yet I wonder how many people will want to type in "Dragon Ball Super Episode 1", as opposed to just episode one; so, generic numbered title or actual title, they're going to be typing in more than most people would probably care for. I also do get that there are multiple fantranslations that some people could be using (I think that tripped me up on Narutopedia once, and I simply had to go find the bloody chapter number), but I still say redirects can be used to solve that problem if people would have just a little patience to type in something more (Episode 1 (Dragon Ball) could just as easily take them to the episode page, complete with it's actual title still intact, and spare us the awkward article titles). But that's just me. In short, I don't entirely agree, but I can't do much if the rest of the wiki does.— Mina Țepeș 05:02, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- The problem is that not every person who visits this wiki knows these re-directs exist. I didn't even know they existed until it was pointed out to me. If I never started this discussion, I would have to go out of my way to find the exact name of the chapter every single time. If a new visitor clicks on Who Will the 100 Million Zeni Peace Reward Go To…?! from the wikia's main page, and they see that the page is named by episode title, they're gonna assume every episode is like that, and they're going to think they have to type in episode title to remember because they don't know these re-directs exist. And yes, typing in 'Dragon Ball Super episode 5' is kinda long, but not as long as 'Decisive Battle on King Kai's Planet! Goku vs. God of Destruction Beerus', not to mention the former will be much easier to remember (you don't even have to know what the title is). A title such as 'Dragon Ball Super episode 5' is relatively short to compared to most of the episode titles, and it doesn't require you to remember the episode title (remember not everyone knows these re-directs exist so they will think they have to know what the title is). Also, people know they are visiting a Dragon Ball wiki that covers the whole Dragon Ball franchise, so I'm sure no-one would be that dumb or ignorant to type just 'episode 1'. I'm sure this is possible, but if we make so whenever someone types 'DBS' it automatically means 'Dragon Ball Super', for no matter what page it is. For example, someone could type 'DBS chapter 6', 'DBS episode 10' or even 'DBS animation credits' and it will take them to their desired page.--DuelMaster93 (talk) 10:24, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- Holy crapbaskets did I miss a lot while I was away. First, welcome to the Wiki DuelMaster, nice to have you on board. So...since my two cents is apparently desired, I'm gonna go on record to say I'm not in favour of this myself. As far as it is, I don't see a reason to change the article names from, say, "Son Goku's Counterattack!" to "Dragon Ball Chapter 90" , or, again, "Son Goku's Counterattack!" to "Dragon Ball Chapter 155", and then be on our merry way, with the chapter names being the redirects. I'm far more comfortable as leaving the chapter numbers and episode numbers themselves being redirects. However, this is from a personal standpoint, as you have a point, there's much more media for Dragon Ball than say, Naruto or BLEACH, where everything is simpler and easier to document. Listing chapter and episode titles by their serial number as their article title (say, Bulma and Son Goku to Dragon Ball Chapter 1 would probably make far more sense in the long run, given that all of these series have an "episode 1", having that as the redirect would be painful given how many "episode 1"s exist, it'd just take them right to a disambiguation page just to find the precise episode 1 they want, which could get annoying after awhile. And yet I wonder how many people will want to type in "Dragon Ball Super Episode 1", as opposed to just episode one; so, generic numbered title or actual title, they're going to be typing in more than most people would probably care for. I also do get that there are multiple fantranslations that some people could be using (I think that tripped me up on Narutopedia once, and I simply had to go find the bloody chapter number), but I still say redirects can be used to solve that problem if people would have just a little patience to type in something more (Episode 1 (Dragon Ball) could just as easily take them to the episode page, complete with it's actual title still intact, and spare us the awkward article titles). But that's just me. In short, I don't entirely agree, but I can't do much if the rest of the wiki does.— Mina Țepeș
- I also use Kanzenshuu as my source for everything Dragon Ball. We are all using official names here, what I am talking about is translations. There are a range of different translations on the net, and it would easier just to make Chapter 50 the main page, because not everyone knows that these re-directs exist. For example, someone clicks on Who Will the 100 Million Zeni Peace Reward Go To…?! on the wikia's main page and then assumes all episode pages are like this and are unaware that re-directs like Dragon Ball Super episode 1 exist, so when they want to look for let's say Dragon Ball Super episode 5, they might attempt to type in the episode title but can't find it due to the wikia using a different translations to the version they watched. Not to mention it would be easier to edit templates by just typing the serial number. I hope I made myself clear this time.--DuelMaster93 (talk) 02:35, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- It's better if we use the offical name of the chapter. And the numbered chapter should be redirected from it. But, if we use this numbered one for the Infobox' character' Début, it may save much space. Right? — The Tragedy of L
- So far, we've been using kanji, rōmaji, and translations from Kanzenshuu.com. As for your suggestion for renaming this page to Chapter 89 (unless I misinterpreted "I believe that Chapter 90 should be the main page" as you said), I believe for the sake of consistency, we'd use official names. Also, one can just type "Chapter 89" or so in the search bar at the top and be directed to the respective named chapter, and find what they're looking for in arguably the same amount of time due to it being a redirect. Furthermore, we just use the dub names as redirects to the episode page as well, as typing in the dub name would cause the article to appear in the search bar. ★WindStar7125
Again, to repeat, users will always search a chapter by numbering as opposed to name, since not every chapter is named in English, but still numbered. Not seeing the issue with chapter numbers as redirects there, users will always search for chapters in that manner. I can't necessarily name a wiki that does what you're proposing. Chapter titles and episode titles are always used, with the chapter numbers/episode numbers being redirects, so users will always assume that chapters and episodes articles will be named with actual names, not serial numbers, regardless of looking at the front page or not.
As for episodes, yes, let's say they don't know that the number redirects exist, one can simply type in the dub name of the episode they've watched, and be redirected to the name the wiki uses. A Devastating Wish - a dub title - redirects to The Mysterious Dragon Balls Appear!! Goku Becomes a Child?!, the wiki's (or rather Kanzenshuu's) translated title. They don't need to know if number redirects exists, since we redirect dub titles as well. ★WindStar7125 17:54, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- I meant, what if they don't know that any of these re-directs exist. Let's say someone clicks on Who Will the 100 Million Zeni Peace Reward Go To…?! from the wikia's main page, and they see the page is named by episode title. They're gonna assume every episode is like this and they have no way of knowing that serial number and dub title redirects exist. And what about similar episode titles. For example Dragon Ball Z 263 episode is called 'Buu is Overwhelmed!! Gohan’s Miracle Power', while Dragon Ball Kai episode 142 is called 'Buu is Overwhelmed! Ultimate Gohan’s Super Power!!'. Let's say someone just watched Dragon Ball Kai episode 142 and due to the length of the title can only vaguely remember the first half of the title, how will they know which one is which? And let's also say they don't know these re-directs exist (this is a realistic scenario, as I didn't even know these specific re-directs existed until having this conversation. keep in mind there are a lot of wikia visitors who don't edit, and don't know about re-directs). In that case what would they do? Also as stated before 'Dragon Ball Super episode 5' is much shorter than 'Decisive Battle on King Kai's Planet! Goku vs. God of Destruction Beerus'. Almost all of the time the episode title will be longer than Dragon Ball GT episode 9. Like you said, people will always remember episode/chapter over the title, so a lot of people who don't know these re-directs exist will have a harder time reaching their desired page.
- I might also add that this 'List of Animated Media' page and pages like 'List of Dragon Ball Kai episodes' aren't easily accessible (not on the main page or header), and pages such as 'episode list', 'chapter list', 'video game list' are pages users shouldn't have to search for, and should be able to reach with just 1 click and no typing.--DuelMaster93 (talk) 19:16, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
I meant, what if they don't know that any of these re-directs exist. Let's say someone clicks on Who Will the 100 Million Zeni Peace Reward Go To…?! from the wikia's main page, and they see the page is named by episode title. They're gonna assume every episode is like this and they have no way of knowing that serial number and dub title redirects exist.
- How do you know that? Have you spoken to a multitude of users that have that experience, or have only you gone through that? And what do you mean by "They're gonna assume every episode is like this?" All they're going to assume is that the wiki uses actual names for episode title, and search for the episode they desire by its name. They won't know the wiki's titles, therefore, by default, they'll just type up the name they saw on the TV screen and be redirected to the wiki's article. They don't need to know the redirects exists, they'll search up dub names regardless.
And what about similar episode titles. For example Dragon Ball Z 263 episode is called 'Buu is Overwhelmed!! Gohan’s Miracle Power', while Dragon Ball Kai episode 142 is called 'Buu is Overwhelmed! Ultimate Gohan’s Super Power!!'. Let's say someone just watched Dragon Ball Kai episode 142 and due to the length of the title can only vaguely remember the first half of the title, how will they know which one is which?
- We use {{Looking for}} templates for articles with similar names when they end up on the page they don't intend to end up on, like this. And there are also search results, as well.
And let's also say they don't know these re-directs exist (this is a realistic scenario, as I didn't even know these specific re-directs existed until having this conversation. keep in mind there are a lot of wikia visitors who don't edit, and don't know about re-directs). In that case what would they do?
- Again, they don't need to know the redirects exist, that will not prevent a user from searching up the dub names they see on the TV screen or the chapter numbers they read online. Again, maybe you've had that experience, but have you encountered a multitude of users who've gone through that?
Also as stated before 'Dragon Ball Super episode 5' is much shorter than 'Decisive Battle on King Kai's Planet! Goku vs. God of Destruction Beerus'. Almost all of the time the episode title will be longer than Dragon Ball GT episode 9. Like you said, people will always remember episode/chapter over the title, so a lot of people who don't know these re-directs exist will have a harder time reaching their desired page.
- Trying to shorten the name of an article for the sake of convenience is not the best route to go. Like I asked, what other wikis name their episode articles by serialization number? User will always assume that they have to know the episode name to navigate through the wiki. The common episode name they'll think of will be the dub names, which will function well as redirects. Again, they don't need to know the redirects exists, for that will not prevent them from typing in the dub titles in the search bar regardless.
I might also add that this 'List of Animated Media' page and pages like 'List of Dragon Ball Kai episodes' aren't easily accessible (not on the main page or header), and pages such as 'episode list', 'chapter list', 'video game list' are pages users shouldn't have to search for, and should be able to reach with just 1 click and no typing.
- Then, I can simply put pages such as List of Volumes and List of Animated Media on the header and the front page. It's no problem. ★WindStar7125 19:40, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- Ok, you want examples of wikia that name by serial number? Well here you go:
- If you check the links, clearly, none of them are re-directs. And I can list more if you want, but that's not the point here.
- Ok, you want examples of wikia that name by serial number? Well here you go:
- First of all, not all wiki's have re-directs for things such as episode titles and episode serials. You can't just expect people to assume you have all the necessary re-directs. As for that tlx template, it doesn't matter cause they're still going to have to end up making a decision on which page they check first, which is less than ideal. And I have yet to come across wiki that uses dub name re-directs for chapter/episode titles, so a lot of people won't even think of typing in the dub title (especially after seeing the title of the page uses a fan-translated title, cause no one is going to think another episode will use the dub name of the title), not knowing these re-directs exist. No, it won't prevent them from typing the dub name anyway, but for people who don't know these re-directs exist, common sense will suggest they won't be typing in 'Lord Luud's Curse' after seeing as the title on the page they initially visited 'The Mysterious Dragon Balls Appear!! Goku Becomes a Child?!'. Also, convenience is not the only reason I listed, and I only brought up length of article name because you stated 'Dragon Ball Super Episode 1' being too long to type. And no, I haven't encountered visitors with the same problem on this particular wiki, cause I only just found it a day or 2 ago, and there aren't many visitors here other than the ones who run this wiki. As for the whole 'episode list', 'chapter list', 'video game list' pages not being easily accessible, that was just a side suggestion that I thought you should fix up right away (and yet the changes have yet to be made).
- Anyway, I usually do the majority of chapter/episode translations and page creations for the One Piece, Fairy Tail, Toriko (well used to for this one), and Dragon Ball episodes (chapters for FT), and speaking from experience the Dragon Ball wiki was the least convenient due to the fact that it names pages by chapter/episode name. To give you an idea, usually 3-5 episodes are usually announced all at once, so when I create these pages I can just simply duplicate let's say 'One Piece 701' tab in my browser and simply change the 701 to 702 and start editing right away, as opposed to the unnecessary opening the wiki in a new tab, then pasting the episode title into the 'What do you want to call it?', exiting visual editor, opening source editor, copying the necessary templates from the templates page (or wherever they may be), then re-copy the episode title into all the necessary templates. So basically I have to copy the same thing twice and go through additional unnecessary steps. On the other hand, with the other wiki's I can just simply duplicate, change 1 number in the address, bar copy all necessary templates, and then copy the episode title just 1 time. You guys haven't run into this problem yet cause you are only creating the next episode/chapter pages once the previous one is fully complete (with summary images, trivia, corresponding chapter/episode). I on the other hand am creating pages all at once, cause each page only has a few templates and no summary, images etc. (cause these are new unaired episodes). So not only from a visitors point of view, but an editing point of view it would be much easier.--DuelMaster93 (talk) 21:07, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- Oh, and I forgot to mention that Kanzenshuu aren't always the first to have episode titles (whether i'd be either translated, romaji or kanji). Just like Dragon Ball Super episodes 4 & 5, Kanzenshuu has yet to translate these titles. Now, I know that due to the policy of this wiki, the translations I provided will be replaced by Kanzenshuu's (which is fine), but that would mean you would have to re-name and the page on top of re-editing the page as well as re-edit additional templates. So it's better just to make the serial number main page, and once Kanzenshuu posts their translations we just simply re-edit the page and create a re-direct for the Kanzenshuu title.--DuelMaster93 (talk) 21:19, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- And just one more thing before I forget, I mentioned it would easier for templates. Some of the wiki's I listed above (the ones that name the article by serial), are able to have templates where pasting the title of the previous & next chapter/episode isn't necessary. For example One Piece episode template has Previous and Next buttons, and the Next button for the latest episode created is unclickable until the next episode page is created. If we named by number, we could implement something similar into our chapter/episode templates here so that we don't have to add the title of the previous & next chapters/episodes every time we create a new chapter/episode page. Ok, that is all for now.--DuelMaster93 (talk) 22:05, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- First of all, not all wiki's have re-directs for things such as episode titles and episode serials. You can't just expect people to assume you have all the necessary re-directs. As for that tlx template, it doesn't matter cause they're still going to have to end up making a decision on which page they check first, which is less than ideal. And I have yet to come across wiki that uses dub name re-directs for chapter/episode titles, so a lot of people won't even think of typing in the dub title (especially after seeing the title of the page uses a fan-translated title, cause no one is going to think another episode will use the dub name of the title), not knowing these re-directs exist. No, it won't prevent them from typing the dub name anyway, but for people who don't know these re-directs exist, common sense will suggest they won't be typing in 'Lord Luud's Curse' after seeing as the title on the page they initially visited 'The Mysterious Dragon Balls Appear!! Goku Becomes a Child?!'. Also, convenience is not the only reason I listed, and I only brought up length of article name because you stated 'Dragon Ball Super Episode 1' being too long to type. And no, I haven't encountered visitors with the same problem on this particular wiki, cause I only just found it a day or 2 ago, and there aren't many visitors here other than the ones who run this wiki. As for the whole 'episode list', 'chapter list', 'video game list' pages not being easily accessible, that was just a side suggestion that I thought you should fix up right away (and yet the changes have yet to be made).
- I have to say guys, I'm almost inclined to agree with him. We have movies with names like Dragon Ball Z: A Lonesome, Final Battle 'The Father of the Z Warrior Son Goku, who Challenged Freeza and that is simply ridiculous. I'd also like to point out that Bulbapedia, the massively successful Pokemon Wiki, also uses this method. I'd still like to hear more thoughts, but he is making a really good argument here. Edit: So that everyone can fully understand what this would mean, this is a Bulbapedia episode article. If we were to mimic their style, we could name the episodes like so:
- For Dragon Ball Super episodes, we could use the format DBS001, have all of the relevent episode names redirect there, with the actual Japanese-translated title in the lead (like Bulbapedia).
- Likewise, we could do the same for movies. For example, similar to this, only I'd suggest the formatting Movie 1, Movie 15, etc. etc.
- That way we don't have huge, long titles like "Dragon Ball Z: A Lonesome, Final Battle 'The Father of the Z Warrior Son Goku, who Challenged Freeza", while still allowing us to list such titles in relevant pages, such as the List of Animated Media. ~ Lord Guru 22:15, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
*Magi
- You claim none of them are redirects. This example you brought up, in particular, uses "Episode 25" as a redirect as well, suggesting that they at one point named their article "Episode 25" but then moved it to the named article (the history confirms this). As I see on that wiki, they use things like "Volume 15" simply because there is no other name for the volume, and such. Also, going with your suggestion would also create a new issue: If we have to name articles "Chapter 1" or "DBZ Episode 1," for purposes of consistency, we would also have to rename articles accordingly, such as "Volume 1" or "Movie 1" or "OVA 1" etc. More people are going to recognize the names of movies, not the order of them.
First of all, not all wiki's have re-directs for things such as episode titles and episode serials. You can't just expect people to assume you have all the necessary re-directs.
- I don't expect them to. As I said, they don't need to know such redirects exists, it will not stop them from searching the episode number or dub title out of curiosity.
As for that tlx template, it doesn't matter cause they're still going to have to end up making a decision on which page they check first, which is less than ideal.
- And when they end up on that page, and realize it wasn't the one they were looking for, they can use that template to get to the page they were intending to find from the beginning.
And I have yet to come across wiki that uses dub name re-directs for chapter/episode titles, so a lot of people won't even think of typing in the dub title (especially after seeing the title of the page uses a fan-translated title, cause no one is going to think another episode will use the dub name of the title), not knowing these re-directs exist.
- I'll admit, that is true, but DBZ is the only anime that has many episodes with many titles, even a remastered version (Kai) with similar episode titles.
No, it won't prevent them from typing the dub name anyway, but for people who don't know these re-directs exist, common sense will suggest they won't be typing in 'Lord Luud's Curse' after seeing as the title on the page they initially visited 'The Mysterious Dragon Balls Appear!! Goku Becomes a Child?!'.
- Also, true.
Also, convenience is not the only reason I listed, and I only brought up length of article name because you stated 'Dragon Ball Super Episode 1' being too long to type. And no, I haven't encountered visitors with the same problem on this particular wiki, cause I only just found it a day or 2 ago, and there aren't many visitors here other than the ones who run this wiki.
- I was talking about other users in general. But since you brought up the other wikis, then that question is answered.
As for the whole 'episode list', 'chapter list', 'video game list' pages not being easily accessible, that was just a side suggestion that I thought you should fix up right away (and yet the changes have yet to be made).
- A possible solution would be to just keep the literal translated articles, and put all of the lists on the front page, if possible.
...and speaking from experience the Dragon Ball wiki was the least convenient due to the fact that it names pages by chapter/episode name.
- Yeah, you're not the first person that's complained about the DB Wiki being hard to navigate through. And we do want to differentiate ourselves from them
...but that would mean you would have to re-name and the page on top of re-editing the page as well as re-edit additional templates. So it's better just to make the serial number main page, and once Kanzenshuu posts their translations we just simply re-edit the page and create a re-direct for the Kanzenshuu title.
- Renaming articles and changing whatever links to them wouldn't be a problem for me, but it would be for other users, but it would be tedious having to rename all of those articles to your suggestion however.
And just one more thing before I forget, I mentioned it would easier for templates.
- I don't operate on the mindset of doing things, "because it's easier." The easy way isn't always the right way.
We have movies with names like Dragon Ball Z: A Lonesome, Final Battle 'The Father of the Z Warrior Son Goku, who Challenged Freeza and that is simply ridiculous.
- Yep. Even Aha and I admitted that the Japanese suck at naming their movies. Fortunately for you all, I'm not stubborn, as DuelMaster93 does give very good points. Whatever happens, I'll be fine with as long as it's best for the wiki. ★WindStar7125 22:33, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- Ok the Magi one was a mistake. I rarely visit that wiki and accidentally listed it with the wrong category. Anyway, I'm sure the 11 other links still gets the point across that there are plenty of other wiki's that name by serial number. And please, who on earth would search out of curiosity (especially when they don't know who's translation the wiki is using). No, it won't stop them, but i'm sure most people would rather type in 'Dragon Ball GT episode 15' knowing the page does in fact exist (after seeing Dragon Ball GT episode 1 for example as the main page) and also knowing it will get them to DBGT episode 15, rather than type in 'Beginning of The End' or a random fan translation, not knowing if it's it gonna get them to the right place, or if it will get them anywhere at all for that matter (once again this is all assuming they don't know these re-directs exist). And as for the tlx template, I know the template will do the job if they choose the wrong one, but it is still less than ideal for people to have to end up using it (when it comes to chapter/episode/volume titles), as they still have to make a decision before reaching that point. Renaming all that may not be a problem for you, but given Kanzenshuu aren't always the first to post new titles (in fact rarely the first), renaming pages and multiple templates are likely to become a regular thing (every new episode to be precise). And I for one am not a fan of constantly renaming pages and multiple templates on a regular basis. Renaming something here or there is ok, but I'd rather not have constant renaming a regular thing, especially when it's unnecessary as this type of thing is avoidable (by naming by serial). And when I said easier, I meant more so that we wouldn't have to go through unnecessary steps (such as copy and pasting previous and next episode titles), therefore making things easier in the long run. In this situation there is no right or wrong way, as the end result will still be the same (or very similar), the only difference being that we don't have to through additional unnecessary steps. Also, TenTailedFox, I am not against using 'DBS001' as the name for the main page, as in my opinion, serial number will always be better chapter/episode titles, as they don't force you to know/remember the chapter/episode title (not to mention there are many different translations out there as well as dub), especially if you do not know the re-directs exist. And I haven't thought about movies, TV specials and OVA's as those aren't officially serials, but for the sake of consistency (as well as shortening long titles and making templates easier to edit) we might as well do them too if we end up doing chapters and episodes.
- EDIT: And Windstar, titles for movies, ova's and tv specials are much easier to remember than episode titles. I know consistency is always best, but the Fairy Tail wiki has a policy that all serials (such as chapters and episodes) are named as serials, and everything else by name, because they are not serials. Usually I think consistency is best, but I honestly think their policy works (I may not be the biggest fan of the inconsistency part, but for the most part most people there either like it or agree with it).
- ANOTHER EDIT: Also, I don't think just simply adding the list to the front page and keeping all chapter/episode article names as is the solution here. People don't want to continuous go back to the list and continuously scroll through. It would be easier (for the visitor) to just type in the serial number for the chapter/episode they are looking for. Just the list being easily accessible is what I was going for, not for it to solve this whole problem. Cause some people prefer to go to the list and some prefer to type, so we have to cater to both (and in this particular situation DB chapter/episode list are longer than most so i'm sure people would rather search than scroll)
- Also, just to be clear here; I am only making suggestions (and raising points as to why I think my suggestion is a good one), and I am not forcing anyone to agree with me or to implement what I am suggesting. I'm sorry if I come off as stubborn or condescending but I am just trying to make this wiki better and improve it, and not make it a cluttered mess like the other Dragon Ball wiki. Windstar, you are more than welcome to continue to dispute my points if you still have anything to say. It's better to put out everything onto the table and have a thorough a conversation as possible. This is why I am brining up experiences I had as a visitor on this wiki and and as a visitor and editor on other wiki's. Just like the rest of you, I also want what's best for the wiki (from both a visitors and editors point of view).--DuelMaster93 (talk) 23:54, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
- As much as I am not a huge fan of the changes being proposed, I can't really deny the format would probably look better in the long run. To run off what Ten was saying, Bulbapedia does use a similar format that would make titling the episodes are easier in the long run, and the same is done for movies. And given how laughably long some of the Japanese movie titles can be ('Dragon Ball Z: Clash!! The Power of 10 Billion Warriors' is probably one of the nicest examples I can give), avoiding those long titles in article names, but using them in the introductory paragraphs is probably the best route to go. So, I will agree that DuelMaster does make good points, and if this is the way the wiki goes, I'll follow suit without complaint.— Mina Țepeș 01:48, July 11, 2015 (UTC)
- As much as I am not a huge fan of the changes being proposed, I can't really deny the format would probably look better in the long run. To run off what Ten was saying, Bulbapedia does use a similar format that would make titling the episodes are easier in the long run, and the same is done for movies. And given how laughably long some of the Japanese movie titles can be ('Dragon Ball Z: Clash!! The Power of 10 Billion Warriors' is probably one of the nicest examples I can give), avoiding those long titles in article names, but using them in the introductory paragraphs is probably the best route to go. So, I will agree that DuelMaster does make good points, and if this is the way the wiki goes, I'll follow suit without complaint.— Mina Țepeș
- Ok the Magi one was a mistake. I rarely visit that wiki and accidentally listed it with the wrong category. Anyway, I'm sure the 11 other links still gets the point across that there are plenty of other wiki's that name by serial number. And please, who on earth would search out of curiosity (especially when they don't know who's translation the wiki is using). No, it won't stop them, but i'm sure most people would rather type in 'Dragon Ball GT episode 15' knowing the page does in fact exist (after seeing Dragon Ball GT episode 1 for example as the main page) and also knowing it will get them to DBGT episode 15, rather than type in 'Beginning of The End' or a random fan translation, not knowing if it's it gonna get them to the right place, or if it will get them anywhere at all for that matter (once again this is all assuming they don't know these re-directs exist). And as for the tlx template, I know the template will do the job if they choose the wrong one, but it is still less than ideal for people to have to end up using it (when it comes to chapter/episode/volume titles), as they still have to make a decision before reaching that point. Renaming all that may not be a problem for you, but given Kanzenshuu aren't always the first to post new titles (in fact rarely the first), renaming pages and multiple templates are likely to become a regular thing (every new episode to be precise). And I for one am not a fan of constantly renaming pages and multiple templates on a regular basis. Renaming something here or there is ok, but I'd rather not have constant renaming a regular thing, especially when it's unnecessary as this type of thing is avoidable (by naming by serial). And when I said easier, I meant more so that we wouldn't have to go through unnecessary steps (such as copy and pasting previous and next episode titles), therefore making things easier in the long run. In this situation there is no right or wrong way, as the end result will still be the same (or very similar), the only difference being that we don't have to through additional unnecessary steps. Also, TenTailedFox, I am not against using 'DBS001' as the name for the main page, as in my opinion, serial number will always be better chapter/episode titles, as they don't force you to know/remember the chapter/episode title (not to mention there are many different translations out there as well as dub), especially if you do not know the re-directs exist. And I haven't thought about movies, TV specials and OVA's as those aren't officially serials, but for the sake of consistency (as well as shortening long titles and making templates easier to edit) we might as well do them too if we end up doing chapters and episodes.